Thomas Hübl: Shadow Work in Evolutionary Spirituality

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thomas hubl Last month, for the third time I had the privilege of interviewing spiritual teacher Thomas Hübl. My two previous interviews with him covered the four foundations to his teaching and the place of the creative future in his work. In this interview we explored his understanding and practice of shadow work. As with our previous interview, I will be publishing an accompanying essay (on Wednesday of this week) that reflects on the themes covered in this interview. This piece includes the audio and the transcript of the interview. 

But before we get there, a quick word about the process in this interview. As in the previous interview on the creative future, there was not a great deal of preparation between Thomas and I. In both cases, I've sent a note to Thomas suggesting a few different possible topics and he selected the one on which he wanted to focus.

I've begun each interview with a question that introduces the topic. From there on, I have no pre-scripted questions in my mind or ones I have sent to Thomas himself. I simply listen in to what he's saying and try, as best as I can, to ask followup questions out of what is arising as he speaks. It's an attempt, on my part, to embody Thomas' teaching concerning transparent communication in the interview itself. I don't get the sense that Thomas is simply overriding a question I ask with some pre-determined answer. I feel like he really responds creatively in the moment. 

thomas hublThomas referred to a kind of 'alchemy' that seems to occur in this way of interacting. Personally it's quite terrifying as my ego is very worried that when the time comes for me to speak I'm not going to have anything to say. My ego is afraid I'll look like a complete idiot in the presence of this man. But trusting in the process, trusting that something will come forward as it's needed is, for me, a really stretching practice. Somehow I think it works--of course it helps when you're interviewing someone like Thomas Hübl.  

The basis for this interview on shadow came from a conversation that Beams published between Brs. Olen and Bruce along with Thomas. You can read that trialog here. In that discussion, Thomas refers to an understanding of shadow with an evolutionary context that I found quite intriguing. Here is the piece that jumped out at me: 

Every shadow contraction or disassociated energy that is in in our energy field is actually circular, unintegrated evolutionary drive that wants to fulfil its movement and by this we see how shadow work is equally important than what we normally understand or what Andrew Cohen describes as evolutionary work, which means looking towards the evolutionary impulse. By looking into the parts of the shadow that are looking for integration, this is equally evolutionary work.

This was one section of a much larger conversation between the three of them. The interview begins with me asking Thomas if we might select out this element and go deeply into it. 

You can listen to the audio here: right-click to download and save. 

The transcript (edited slightly for English grammatical sense) is below. 



Transcript of Interview on Shadow in Evolutionary Framework (Thomas Hübl & Chris Dierkes, April 2012)

CD: Thomas thank you for spending time with us. You had a conversation with Bruce and Olen recently and there was a piece in that conversation where you talked about shadow work in the context of evolutionary forms of spirituality. Seems to me there are a lot of teachings that are about the shadow, the unconscious, the parts we’re afraid to go towards, but they’re not necessarily in a framework of evolution. And then there might be other teachings that have a strong sense of evolution or the impulse of the future but don’t include an element of the shadow. And what I heard in what you were saying there—and it was just a small piece of a much larger conversation—and I was hoping that you would now take that piece and deepen the thread or unpack it. What I heard was a kind of movement towards reconciliation or a way of integration of shadow [work] within an evolutionary context and I was wondering if you might give us a sense of how you see that happening and what that means?

TH: So first of all people talk about evolution and I think the nature of evolution is that they need to understand that the mystical traditions look at evolution as energy and structure create together a self-updating movement. The spiritual traditions say that the more we go into deeper areas or more profound levels of life we become more energetic. So there’s more free energy. The person is a structure and the person is identified with the structure of consciousness—the body sensations, the emotions, the thoughts, the society structures around us—those are incorporated into my sense of self. And I’m identified with this. ‘So Thomas is this’ or ‘Chris is this’ [Thomas points to our bodies]. The more you wake up and the less you are actually identified and bound to one perspective, one individual, one structure, but you can include and transcend. So include more structures and transcend them. Include and transcend. So the more you do that, more and more perspectives live inside you as a bigger space and therefore your radius of awareness is higher. So when there is a lot of energy, when we become more free energy, we are not so bound to one perspective. We can hold the space for many perspectives at the same time and also many possibilities of reality at the same time.

And when we enter the mystical traditions we see we align ourselves more with the creation impulse of the universe. So once something is created, it’s moving. In order to understand evolution we need to understand that the nondual realization is the competency of silence and the competency of movement as one or as not-two. So we understand that intelligence is a movement that is already moving. Everybody who is born is already moving and the potential and the intelligence in there is already in movement. So evolution is always an update in the given movement. Energy then is a very high movement and structure is a crystallized movement and therefore reduced. So the universe needs to reduce its intelligence on one level in order to give birth to a physical universe. So everything that is already crystallized is already a lower movement than the divine intelligence, which would be unreduced movement, pure movement, pure intelligence.

And so when the whole lifetime that we live as a human being we actually live in the tension between the gravity and the magnetism of the structure and Eros, or the driving force of the universe, the creativity of the universe. So those are always in a relation. And  if we live a healthy and aligned life then the update of life comes whenever it is necessary. Most of the people, because we are identified too much with the structure, want to stay safe in the structure, hold onto it. Then the agent of evolution comes, knocks at your door, you open, he says ‘Move!’ and you close the door. Because you like your sofa, but you need to move out of this house now. But no, you say, ‘I like this house, I like this life, I like this relationship, I like this job’, but something in you tells you ‘Move!’ But the moment you don’t hear this voice inside you or this feeling that it’s time to change, you create tension. From this day on more and more tension will build up. Eros will call you and the gravity will stay here. And this when in our bodies, in our emotions, in our thoughts, we build up tension. In our interpersonal connections there is more tension because we are less satisfied. And less in our flow.

So when we bring this understanding back then evolution—everything that’s moving needs to fulfill its purpose. Like if you take a football and you kick it, it has a certain movement and it will finish its movement. If it crashes against the wall, it will transmit some of its energy to the wall, and it will finish its movement somewhere else. But it needs to finish its movement. Everything in life is the same. Once we are born, we are moving and the ball needs to roll until it stops rolling. So the core intelligence of every human being is movement in action. Essence, the essence is movement in action. Every reflection about the essence is not essential. Because essence is an online creation.

So when we see this, we see that in the lives of individuals, there is a part of this movement that can develop into its highest ability that is possible for now. But there are sometimes parts of our lives—for example, someone that is very skilled as a piano player but never got the possibility to have a piano and play. So this talent, this intelligence is actually stuck in the circumstances and cannot move. So it will stay on a very early developmental stage of the intelligence because it has no possibility to interact with the world and to learn and to grow. Or the sexual energy of someone. If it stays stuck at a very early level it has no possibility to continue its movement.

So what does this mean? Some people think evolution is when we look into the evolutionary impulse and we are always on the leading edge. But I believe in the moment you know that every energy that is stuck in a circle or movement--because it couldn’t fulfill its purpose--there is a spark of this alignment that’s also living in this contraction we also call the shadow. So we actually collect the dollars of the lower levels in the building by connecting to it, releasing it from its contraction, most of the time through human connection. Because if this intelligence can relate to the world, get feedback, and continue its growth, then we will evolve the intelligence that is much younger then the human being is now. So the shadow is always an intelligence that is younger than the human being is in his/her age now.

People will experience the shadow areas as problematic or challenging because this intelligence that cannot fulfill its movement will constantly call you. ‘Hello, hello, hello.’ So this is what energy needs to do because energy needs to fulfill its movement. And it will call and if it’s one year, a hundred years, or a thousand years, it will call until the time that it is released, fulfills its movement and disappears into nothing. Because energy is being born, fulfills its purpose, and then disappears again into potentiality. And something else will be born and this goes on forever.

So life is a constant movement and every movement that cannot do what it is supposed to do will call. And how does it call? It calls through body sensations, feelings, and thoughts that don’t fit into the given moment. So you sit in a business meeting and you talk but then a very strange fear comes into the meeting and constantly knocks on your door. It calls you on your mobile and your mobile is always calling but you say ‘I can’t talk now I have a business meeting.’ And then the fear comes and it might influence your decisions. But it has nothing to do with your present state, with your potential in a given situation. It’s a movie on top of the main movie. So you see actually a movie on top of the real movie, which disturbs a bit the real movie, so that you can’t anymore discern fully what belongs to here and what belongs to the past. The past actually jumps on your screen and disturbs your desktop. And you want to work and suddenly you see this movement.

So every movement that is trapped will create side effects. Like as if you put something in a box, you close it, but the box is constantly rattling. Shadow work, I believe, is a relational competency that we can give each other that will--through what we call transparent communication--will identify the symptoms and the origin. So we will not stay stuck with the symptoms we will go to the origin of the contraction, that holds this pearl and we will learn to relate to the pearl in order to allow the movement, to facilitate the movement to continue what it anyway wants to do. Because I believe that every human being, the core intelligence knows where it needs to go. It [the core intelligence] knows what its potential is. It knows what its biggest contribution to humanity is. So we don’t need to tell it to the intelligence, we just need to give it the space that it cannot do whatever it wants to do.

Therefore I think if we understand what evolution is in energetic terms then we see that collecting these sparks, these creative sparks--these might be sexual sparks, social sparks, emotional sparks, intellectual sparks—but they are missing in society. Because if people come together not only do their potentials synchronize but also their shadows synchronize. So if you see people together then you see a lot of potential but also you see dark spots where people synchronize through their shadows. And the culture shows the symptoms as well. So the financial crisis is actually also a crisis of the shadows that we bring all together in society. And therefore in order to create a stable house that can build another level and build another level and build another level we need to collect these, otherwise our house will be shaky.

CD: Thank you. So this image of the light or the pearl, if I heard you there’s a way in which another person can see the light or the pearl. And somehow holding that light in view or seeing that pearl and calling to it rather than getting lost in the symptoms—somehow brings it forward. Somehow then the light is released. So how is it that we can be that way for each other? How we can we really know we are seeing the pearl or the light versus maybe we’re caught in our issues?

TH: How do you know that you play the piano really well? Some people who play the piano are very highly skilled. Thousands of people pay a lot of money to hear them play because they have the magic. And from the beginner up to this expertise there is a kind of a spectrum. So to start, we just acknowledge that every human being radiates their whole information constantly into life. We are all like a radio station and we are all broadcasting our program constantly, 24 hours a day. I think in our society there are not enough learning places for spiritual intelligence and practice places or universities or places where you go to be highly skilled in these abilities, the abilities to navigate in a subtle world, in a world of information, in a world of energy. I believe the anatomy of reality is represented in an informational field. And we all have the ability, because we are human beings, to perceive, to feel, to see, to know this lens [these lands?] of information. So we are living in concrete bodies but every body that my brain sees is actually a composition of many layers of information—all developmental layers leave a layer of information. Like a volcano that gets harder and harder but you see the different layers. You see? So when my brain sees a body as someone it has already composed a lot of information to a concrete object. And what we do now as a practice to learn to look through this concrete object and reveal again the layers of information. So everybody’s physical development left a layer.

It’s like a chapter in a book—the sexual, the emotional, the intellectual development, the social development—chapters of a book. And this book has a name. Everybody has a kosmic address, everyone is a book. I always call it a website. Everybody is a website. You log in to the website, when you have the web address you see the website. And then you check and there’s a menu where it’s written physical development, sexual development. And then you just click what you need and you read it because it’s there. We just need, like everybody needed to learn to read books, so why not learn, as an update, to learn to read the field immediately? Why read reflections about life when we can read life itself, as a book? So the field of life, the whole life, and everybody in it, and every situation, every institution, every company, every [nation] state, the world, chapters in a book that is writing itself constantly online. It is a composition of billions of people who are writing one book online. And we are in it, we are the authors but we’re also the actors in the book. So by our lives we are contributing to the writing but we are also enjoying the writing. So we are reading and writing at the same time.

So when I walk in life actually all the knowledge of humanity is actually here. We just need to learn to read it. And I think that this will be the update of the next level of the systemic understanding, the transpersonal understanding of communication, this will be the update of how we will create a real worldcentric consciousness that we embody and we transmit. Not just that it’s logical clear that global consciousness is good but somehow I’m actually the globe. I am the field of the globe on one level of my being and this is what I am. I’m not just this but this is also who I am. So information is here. And I think the leaders of the future will be people who can connect to this essential intelligence of a human being, of a system, whatever. Every system has an evolutionary drive inside, a creativity that drives it forward. And when we create communities, practice groups, where we learn what I call tuning in with each other, so that we will actually join each other’s creative movement or intelligence. So I tune with you, which means I join your movement and you tune in with me, you join my movement. This lifts us in a higher level of reality where creation forms itself [in]to life.

So when we are tuned in, we create a high intensity. When I am present with you and you are present with me; I listen to what you say, you listen to what I say; I see what you hear, you see what I hear, it creates an enormous intensity. And this intensity helps us to transcend a certain level of separation. And we will meet in a taste of the transpersonal insight. So it’s not just you and me as a person. There’s space and two people happening but we are both aware of the fact that there is space and two people happening. The two people are just informational fields and there is a bigger transpersonal awareness that we both realize.  And this is the foundation of transparent communication. So I’m not just looking as an individual. I’m looking also as transpersonal spacious awareness and as an individual. But I already, through this, I already have the ability to include another’s perspective without interpreting it in my own world. Because my own world is programmed by thousands of years of humanity and is just a reflection of many, many, many, many lives. But if I can look from higher than this, from a higher altitude, I will be able to just allow  your perspective without the need to interpret this in my own limited perspective. So we both share space and still the individuality that feeds into the space, into a Higher We. So when we do this through the intensity alone we will see more because we will actually leave one level of politically correct society and we will really meet. And when people really meet then they see much more. They feel much more. They know much more.

This is the first step and the second step will create a competency, a subtle reality competency which means that if I’m more and more integrated with less shadow parts in my own energy field, then I can see life more clearly and I learn the ability that whenever we talk about a certain problem I will learn to tune in to the layer where we call the problem (on the surface) arises. One aspect of our intelligence couldn’t continue its development, out of certain reasons, and we will find the place, the kosmic address of this intelligence and through a human connection there is again, for the first time, a feedback that invites this intelligence into a relation. So from a stuck contraction, which is like a bubble, in the energy field it looks like a bubble, from there we will connect to the intelligence in the bubble and actually help it to come out and relate. And when it relates, it gets a feedback from the world. So there is a kind of a flow and this allows the intelligence to continue its movement.

And so people experience the parts where development couldn’t be as mature as we [otherwise] are today as a kind of hindrance, a kind of a limitation, as not being able to relate to life in the appropriate way. Because every unintegrated part is a circling energy with a contraction around and some symptoms around it. So whenever life meets us there it comes from seemingly outside. It comes, it meets us there, and it creates a stress plus some of the symptoms will jump onto our screen. So and then I’m more busy with myself then I am with the situation because I’m feeling my symptoms and this takes maybe 40% of my awareness, then I have only 60% left to deal with the situation. If there wouldn’t be this vortex I have 100% [of my awareness] for the situation. So this is why when people who are traumatized or who experience certain parts of themselves as not grown up, then they will be constantly stressed when life meets them at this level, when they need to respond from this place. And you cannot respond fully and you cannot see life fully because you have this vortex here and you constantly need to look through it. On this place when somebody is for example afraid to speak in front of a large audience—every time they walk in front of the group their body will shake, they will sweat, they will be afraid that they will forget what they want to say. So 50% of their awareness is just with this internal movie--a movie on top of the movie. The main movie is a hall with 200 people and the internal movie is the whole process of this. And then you walk onto stage and you are like this [Thomas makes posture of being afraid, clenched up]. In a good way you learn how to deal with this, then it opens and then you give your speech. In the other way you will just feel a bit and present a speech that is smaller than your original potential.

So what we can give each other is this relational competence and this competence to really feel and connect very precisely to the levels of development we need to feel and experience that the one who has a shadow cannot access by him/herself in a direct way. So we can lend each other eyes to see what we by ourselves don’t see. Because where I have a shadow most probably someone in the room will be clear. And as a practicioner community we give each the clarity, the intelligence, the presence, the empathy, the love, to join our clarity and look with a joint clarity at the unclear parts of the group. Because someone in the group is more free in this place than maybe someone else. So there is a lot of support we can give each other, as a community of practicioners.

CD: What I hear in that is I think very valuable. I hear a deep sense of compassion, a sense of giving. So there’s a way in which the relation—when you see the relation comes in to the origin itself, to the light, to the pearl that’s hidden now, the one who is giving that relation, it sounds like there’s a great deal of empathy and love coming from that person which would help perhaps give someone else the strength and the courage to let go and to allow themselves to be seen, to be felt, to be touched in that place.

TH: Right, the vulnerability opens up. And another factor is in the next level of the emergence of human consciousness I believe we will realize that we are not as separate as we think we are. What this means is that if there is a group in a room and we all join our awareness, presence, empathy, compassion, love, vulnerability, clarity, we create a field of seeing and awareness. And actually in the next level of development we will see that it doesn’t matter so much who sees it because life sees it. You know seeing is not something that is just limited to one viewpoint. In a separate version of development it might look like this. All the one-on-one therapies that emerged in the beginning of psychology and psychotherapy are based also on this [separation]. Now the more progressive ones realize ‘ok, the therapist and the client are not so separate as they look.’ So there are two movements that join the path, and there is one field of presence [in] which they both happen. You can be present with me and you can be the feeling-awareness to parts of my bodymind that don’t show up in my awake consciousness because I pulled out the sensitivity and I suppressed the tension into my unconscious area. So, for me, when I look there inside myself, in the first place, there’s nothing or there’s tension, or any kind of symptom. But if you can see this in me, this place, and your energy field starts to touch me, flow into, resonant with my energy, then this part of me will also knock on the door inside myself much more strongly. So your feeling-awareness actually joins my feeling-awareness and even if mine is blocked in this area, you help me to create a resonance that will pull the content from the unconscious into the conscious part of myself. I start seeing this myself, feeling-awareness will be triggered into this, my bodymnid in this area will fill with more light, which means more conscious awareness, and your light actually helped my light to come back into this place of my body in order to be aware of what it is. So some people suppress aggression and then they just feel it is a tension in the body but they don’t feel the feeling. They have back pain they have all kinds of stuff. So if you can feel the aggression in me and you can hold this vibration with your energy I will be invited more and more strongly to feel this place.

And the second thing is that when you see that I go down in my body to feel the tension in my back you can see and feel if I do it—because some people say‘I feel it’ and you can see they don’t feel it, they think about feeling it but they don’t feel it. So then you can invite them there. But once people go into their back and they feel their back, sometimes they feel it in a different vibration. You know like a radio station. The radio station is 88.5 and they are feeling it on 100.3. And on 100.3 on your radio there is no news broadcast. But if you turn down the tuner of your receiver so that you then have 88.5 you then hear the program. And with the back pain it’s the same.

So feeling is a science that includes all developmental stages of life. And we need to learn the science of feeling in order to reveal the unconscious parts in our bodymind and in different levels of development. So some people feel their back and nothing happens. Then you tell me, ‘oh, what if you feel a bit more like this?’ So you help me to tune my feeling and in the moment I hit the right vibration, the whole anger stored in my back will suddenly appear in my reality. I will experience this; I will learn to relate it with you because people are used to being isolated with anger so they suppress it. So then I will learn to contain it and relate it to the world in a healthy way. I will make it a different experience. Not that ‘when I’m angry I’ll get beaten up.’ Rather, ‘when I’m angry there is somebody that stays with me and can receive me’. So we you can receive me when I’m angry and you can be space for me, I have a totally different experience, which rewires my own being and the negativity that I might put on anger will be transformed into ‘oh wow, I can set a clear boundary and the other person doesn’t run away.’ You know anger doesn’t mean the loss of love. Anger means just power, clarity, expression. So my anger that I held for many years might be experienced as a power to have a word to say in the world. And the world doesn’t run away when I’m angry. So the world doesn’t tell me, ‘I will not love you if you are too loud’ ‘I will not love you if you are angry’. So you will feel loved by someone that is space and information. By someone who is attuned with you and you get the feeling that someone is really with you because you are not staying separate. If you are attuned with me you are not staying separate. You are actually in me and I’m in you. You enter my perspective and I enter your perspective which creates a high level of intimacy.

And I think this is the way—on the beginning it will be for people who are more professional but I think later on I believe this will be a cultural ability that this is the way how we live, this is the way how we communicate, this is the way how we support each other. Because I’m interested in your highest light and you are interested in my highest light and we will give everything to support this.

CD: It’s a beautiful vision. You’ve mentioned a great deal there about two individuals—one to hold space and the other to have their light come out which was previously trapped. You also mention at various points that not only could there be individual contraction but also a cultural contraction or a social contraction, for example you mentioned the financial crisis. Is there a way in which groups can hold space to release the light that is somehow collectively unconscious?

TH: Definitely, as I said, if as a group of people we practice this we are a space together, we are an intelligence together. It still consists of individuals that participate but that participation creates a higher space of we. So this space of we can actually hold a space for whatever. This space of we has no other, no they, no them out there. A higher we is a kind of space that can contain structures in consciousness and collective structures in consciousness are equally part of it. So if a group uses the space competency—i.e. the competency of silence—more space, internal space, and the competence of movement—i.e. attunement to the collective shadow structure in society. So we can all learn to be space and to be precisely attuned to this structure in the collective consciousness that we call the shadow, that is suppressed by millions of people and therefore its resting somewhere in the collective unconscious and when we touch it it’s very powerful because it’s charged by a lot of people. So when we create a big group of people and we connect to this structure, so then this structure starts to arise through us in the wakeful consciousness of humanity.

And from there we can take it further because of course every energy will come with a discomfort. Because everything that is suppressed is related to a discomfort—otherwise it wouldn’t be suppressed. Because we tend to like comfort more than discomfort. So everything that is uncomfortable we try to run away from it. When we wake up we see that we cannot live a life running away from the discomfort. So we need to have a deeper commitment to life, which means I’m here. That’s my first priority. And if life is comfortable or uncomfortable, this is not anymore my priority—to jump on the one side or the other. If I do this then I know that every process of change and every integration of a fixation, a spiritual fixation or a shadow, there will be a certain amount of discomfort. But if I’m willing to have it, this is freedom. If you are not anymore afraid of the discomfort of life, you are free. You’re free. You are not running away from the situations and the circumstances in life. You are here. And if there’s a lot of shame, a lot of anger, a lot of sadness, fear, this is what it is and I’m here. This is my deeper commitment.

From there we will start to collect the dollars because we are not anymore afraid to go to the basement of our house because it might be spooky. Even if it’s spooky I’m here. I have made a decision I’m here. And it doesn’t matter what I will find in the basement of humanity.

Some saints or sages they showed this to us. There were some people around that were not afraid to go the poorest, darkest places of humanity and because they were so connected their light was shinning through it. You know people went into the worst circumstances because they felt a calling. It’s not for everybody but for the people who feel this, they need to be there and shine a light into the darkest places of humanity. And if you are not afraid by the discomfort, you’re free. You’re free to walk wherever on the stage of life. And you will go where your calling takes you.

If your calling takes you to the most pleasures, then this is where you go. And if [your calling] takes you to the darkest places, this is where you go. Because you know your commitment is to something deeper. And when we have this then we will create a society that will also take care of the collective shadow parts because we know they will influence millions of people. If we don’t take care of it consciously generations will have the symptoms. So actually in a more evolved society we know to take care of shadow aspects in collective structures, it’s very important. It’s a hygiene for the marketplace.

So it is a calling. We are taking care of our lives, the same as we do with environmental work, we do another kind of environmental work. It’s ecology; it’s inner ecology. Because it clears the landscape and the nature of the subtle realm. And you feel it. Sometimes you come into a room and you think, ‘oh it’s so sticky, it’s stuck...’ You notice that somehow the subtle energy field of the room is stuck. Then you come to another room it’s open, it’s light, you can breathe, you feel uplifted. Sometimes you go to and it lifts you up. Why? Because there is a lot of light and the field is very open. And it’s the same with our cities, it’s the same with the collective perceptive body of humanity.

So in Berlin when something happened that was very very dark or very very cruel, so when people travel to Berlin--or any other city on the planet--you come and you feel it. You feel the collective memory of what happened in this place. And the collective memory is only a memory because it is unresolved energy. There is only the past. When there is the past, there is unresolved energy. If the energy fulfills its cycle, then it disappears into nothing and it’s gone. It will not cross my presence and disturb my moment. You know, unresolved energy will disturb my moment. I go to Berlin and I feel the atrocities of the past. Once humanity makes a step and integrates this shadow, you go to Berlin....and that’s it, you go to Berlin. But humanity will learn something from this. We [can] get a developmental jump out of this shadow. And this I think we will get through many shadows in many places on the planet. And if we take care of them we will actually have collective learning.

So if a collective shadow is integrated successfully, millions of people will get something in this moment. Like millions of people will have a learning experience--‘ah this is how it works.’ It doesn’t mean they need to be connected to the shadow work. Everybody who participates in this will have a release in the moment it will be released. Because therapy will not stay 1 on 1. Our healing and integration capacities will go to bigger and bigger structures of humanity. Then there will be a speeding up of the collective learning process because we will learn, not [only] as individuals, but as fields. Then millions of people will get at an insight at the same time. And this means someone took care of a structure, of a shadow, and in the moment it releases its zap! (Thomas clicks his fingers, signifying the immediacy of the change).

CD: So as we’re coming to the end...thank you Thomas, that’s really inspiring and I really love the call to the commitment to be here--that I will be here regardless of how they may appear or feel. Are there any last words you would like to say?

TH: Just that I think it’s an amazing trip if you really take awakening seriously. If you don’t talk about it like a hobby or like I also go to the cinemas or I also go to a workshop...if I really take it seriously and place myself on the bus of awakening which means the bus line where you enter and on the seat is written ‘Relationships’, ‘Career’, there’s written all kinds of stuff, but you know it’s a seat on the bus. You know where you are going. If you commit to this bus line, life becomes an amazing adventure.

And if we really go beyond comfort and discomfort--which is a deep deep realization--for many people the main motivation that drives them is to surpass their discomfort of their lives. They do everything not to have this [discomfort] but then they live such a small life because 50% of life cannot come to them. But if in the moment you open to this stage of life you know that every change is connected to a letting go of one structure in order to jump to the next. But the structure of outside and inside they compose my feeling of self. So Thomas as he knows himself is composed by the outside and the inside reality we experience. So if someone works for a long time in a job, the job becomes a part of this feeling of self. It becomes a part of my habits. In the moment I change, I need to let go of this part of my wiring and in the outer reality, which always causes a discomfort. Letting go of an addiction causes discomfort.

But in the moment I know, I see, ‘wow the science of change is that I need to invite this discomfort in order to be more fluid in my innovation.’ And the moment you get what this means, it changes your life. Then you become a living, innovative force wherever you live. Because you are not anymore afraid of change. You know change is the pleasure of the universe to create--to create a structure, to enjoy it, and to let it go. And in the moment you are fluid in this, you can stay in places, you can leave places, and there is a fluidity in you. And I think this is what we need in order to actually create a healthy sustainable society. Not a society that will finally arrive somewhere where it’s finally safe, but a society that will see that the safety is in the competence to move. Because the only place where you can rest is in full movement. And this is a divine revelation.


Photo Credit: Matthias Weitbrecht 

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  • Comment Link David MacLeod Wednesday, 30 May 2012 02:57 posted by David MacLeod

    Thank you for continuing the dialog with Thomas Hubl. AND for taking the time to transcribe it as well, which is really helpful for trying to fully digest what he is offering. Having done some transcriptions myself, I know it is a laborious process.

    Have you been around Thomas enough to get a sense of his own abilities to "read the field" or "seeing the pearl" of a person?

  • Comment Link Chris Dierkes Wednesday, 30 May 2012 03:48 posted by Chris Dierkes

    thanks David. It is a lot of work, so I'm glad to hear it's of value.

    And yes I have been around Thomas and have seen him work with people in a 1 on 1 fashion. I actually have an essay coming out tomorrow where I mention this--without going into details or the specifics of the case. But I will say that he did show a profound ability to minutely this image of very finely tuning the radio dial that he uses. It's a very apt image for what he was doing I think.

    He later said as we were talking after the interview that there's no magic (from his perspective) to what he is doing. He actually just locates his awareness in the place of the other person and then speaks from it. If it were something that more of us could learn to do with such skill, a lot of good would come of it I think.

  • Comment Link Joseph Camosy Thursday, 31 May 2012 02:15 posted by Joseph Camosy

    Mr. Hubl's views on the shadow read like elementary depth psychology, except that he's using a different vocabulary and is missing most of the Jungian insights.

    It's still a good start, however!

  • Comment Link Jurgen Portz Thursday, 31 May 2012 19:37 posted by Jurgen Portz


    Thanks for posting this. I very much enjoyed listening to the audio interaction. Thomas really explained well the process he goes through when working with people and their shadows. I saw and experienced this with him and a group last year in Berkeley. It really helps to get at issues and release the blocked energy.


  • Comment Link Chris Dierkes Thursday, 31 May 2012 21:44 posted by Chris Dierkes

    Hi Joseph,

    I would be interested to hear more about why you think that way. My experience is more that on the surface what he is saying does sound simple (sipmle-ish perhaps) but when I sit with it more, it really opens up. Way up. Or way down deep I suppose.

  • Comment Link Chris Dierkes Thursday, 31 May 2012 21:44 posted by Chris Dierkes


    glad to hear you enjoyed it. all the best, Chris

  • Comment Link Lynne Feldman Saturday, 02 June 2012 00:44 posted by Lynne Feldman

    Your article/interview with Thomas was wonderful. He visited One Spirit last fall asnd since then a few of us have been captivated by his work. I posted your interview as my teaching for my Integral Mentors and Ministers lesson and gave a commentary on it today as well. He articulated so powerfully why what I call "sacred dyad" work must be the start of collective transformation. The old system of ther Teacher up front and hundreds of students listening is fine as a beginning. But until/unless we come to learn to trust and be vulnerable to an Other, we are fooling ourselves about collective evolution.
    Much love,

  • Comment Link Denny Sunday, 06 January 2013 13:59 posted by Denny

    This interview has resonated with me deeply. I am an artist and it deepens my realization of where my creativity comes from within the shadow world. I am excited to share this with my 'tribe'. Thank you so much!!

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